R&T : forward or backward to upshift PDK style trannies
The latest issue of Road and Track has an article about wether manu-matics should push forward, or pull backward to upshift. R&T says pull back. I disagreed, so I sent them an email, and they actually responded.
Subject: Push or Pull When Downshifting
A lot of cars, including my 81 911 allow you to switch to high beams by pushing the stalk forward. It would be ridiculous if a car like this forced you to upshift by pulling back on the lever. Manufacturers should be required, like motorcyles, to all follow a standard. Motorcycles require you to move the lever up to upshift, and down to downshift. If the same convention were applied to cars, forward would upshift, because forward and up are more similar to each other than backward and up.
Otto Mittelstaedt
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Mike Monticello R&T>
Hi Otto,
So the whole physics aspect of the article didn’t make any sense to you? You know, when you are braking (and then normally downshifting) your body motion is going forward, and when accelerating (and upshifting) your body is being pushed rearward, so it makes sense to thereby pull back when upshifting, push forward for downshifting?
Think about it for a little bit, and maybe go try it in your car...and then get back to me.
Thanks for your letter,
Mike
Otto>
People go up to climb to the top of a mountain, or forward to advance their careers.
In the case of the steering wheel buttons on the Porsche, the upper part of the button is upshift, the bottom part downshift. When this pattern is laid down as on the consle, upshift is forward.
To whoa a horse, you pull back on the reins. You pull back on the parking brake. You push forward on the gas pedal to accelerate. Pressing the brake pedal pushes you back in the seat. I can see the physics argument, but a car is a whole package, consisting of other controls.
My Volvo has upshift forward, What more can I say?
Otto
Mike Monticello R&T>
Not one thing. Except that pressing the brake pedal does not push you into the back of your seat, as you state below. It pushes you forward. Not sure what you talking about there.
More than anything, all race cars that have sequential manual gearbox levers are push forward to downshift, pull back to upshift. There’s nothing more to know.
Like I said, actually go outside, get into your car and try it: Then think about the whole process long and hard. If you’re still not convinced, so be it. Quite often these types of things are matters of personal preference, but in this case one way makes so much more sense than the other. And as proven by the manufacturers’ answers in the article, the “push forward for downshifting” manufacturers actually thought about why they did it the way they did it, while the “pull back for downshifting” manufacturers didn’t have very strong reasons as to why. Some actually told me: “Because we felt like it,” while another basically said: “we flipped a coin and went with this one.” Even Porsche says “this is the way we decided to do it long ago, so we’ve just stuck with it.”
You’ll notice BMW and Mazda know exactly why they chose push forward for downshifting.
Mike
Otto>
How about if the car was controlled by a joystick. Would you still have forward as slowing down?
As far as the brake, when you apply a force, initially you are pressed back in the seat. When a braking force is subsequently generated, the braking forces push you forward. Take out the seat bolts and see for yourself.
otto
Mike Monticello R&T>
“the braking forces push you forward.”
Otto>
I'm the webmaster for the local porsche club ( pcaucr.org) I could post our exchange on our site, and we'll see if the members have an opinion.
otto
Mike Monticello R&T>
Since Porsche does it “wrong,” in my opinion, I don’t expect your Porsche club guys to agree with me. Hey man, it was fun conversing with you, but we have to get a magazine shipped, so I can’t spend anymore time on this.
But you do contradict yourself a lot. These are your words, not mine: “the braking forces push you forward.” But then you also say they don’t.
Mike
Otto>
Mike:
I do appreciate your reponse. Too often, letters to the editor just disappear into the ether. Keep up the good work.
Otto
Subject: Push or Pull When Downshifting
A lot of cars, including my 81 911 allow you to switch to high beams by pushing the stalk forward. It would be ridiculous if a car like this forced you to upshift by pulling back on the lever. Manufacturers should be required, like motorcyles, to all follow a standard. Motorcycles require you to move the lever up to upshift, and down to downshift. If the same convention were applied to cars, forward would upshift, because forward and up are more similar to each other than backward and up.
Otto Mittelstaedt
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Mike Monticello R&T>
Hi Otto,
So the whole physics aspect of the article didn’t make any sense to you? You know, when you are braking (and then normally downshifting) your body motion is going forward, and when accelerating (and upshifting) your body is being pushed rearward, so it makes sense to thereby pull back when upshifting, push forward for downshifting?
Think about it for a little bit, and maybe go try it in your car...and then get back to me.
Thanks for your letter,
Mike
Otto>
People go up to climb to the top of a mountain, or forward to advance their careers.
In the case of the steering wheel buttons on the Porsche, the upper part of the button is upshift, the bottom part downshift. When this pattern is laid down as on the consle, upshift is forward.
To whoa a horse, you pull back on the reins. You pull back on the parking brake. You push forward on the gas pedal to accelerate. Pressing the brake pedal pushes you back in the seat. I can see the physics argument, but a car is a whole package, consisting of other controls.
My Volvo has upshift forward, What more can I say?
Otto
Mike Monticello R&T>
Not one thing. Except that pressing the brake pedal does not push you into the back of your seat, as you state below. It pushes you forward. Not sure what you talking about there.
More than anything, all race cars that have sequential manual gearbox levers are push forward to downshift, pull back to upshift. There’s nothing more to know.
Like I said, actually go outside, get into your car and try it: Then think about the whole process long and hard. If you’re still not convinced, so be it. Quite often these types of things are matters of personal preference, but in this case one way makes so much more sense than the other. And as proven by the manufacturers’ answers in the article, the “push forward for downshifting” manufacturers actually thought about why they did it the way they did it, while the “pull back for downshifting” manufacturers didn’t have very strong reasons as to why. Some actually told me: “Because we felt like it,” while another basically said: “we flipped a coin and went with this one.” Even Porsche says “this is the way we decided to do it long ago, so we’ve just stuck with it.”
You’ll notice BMW and Mazda know exactly why they chose push forward for downshifting.
Mike
Otto>
How about if the car was controlled by a joystick. Would you still have forward as slowing down?
As far as the brake, when you apply a force, initially you are pressed back in the seat. When a braking force is subsequently generated, the braking forces push you forward. Take out the seat bolts and see for yourself.
otto
Mike Monticello R&T>
“the braking forces push you forward.”
Otto>
I'm the webmaster for the local porsche club ( pcaucr.org) I could post our exchange on our site, and we'll see if the members have an opinion.
otto
Mike Monticello R&T>
Since Porsche does it “wrong,” in my opinion, I don’t expect your Porsche club guys to agree with me. Hey man, it was fun conversing with you, but we have to get a magazine shipped, so I can’t spend anymore time on this.
But you do contradict yourself a lot. These are your words, not mine: “the braking forces push you forward.” But then you also say they don’t.
Mike
Otto>
Mike:
I do appreciate your reponse. Too often, letters to the editor just disappear into the ether. Keep up the good work.
Otto
